In the space below, discuss and debate the following questions:

• Are humans born evil, or do we learn to be that way?
• Is it the responsibility of a government to make sure the people contribute in a positive way to society? Or should that be left up to the individual to decide?
• Is it right to cheat if you know you won't get caught?
• What happens to governments that concern themselves with only their own power?

Celestine says: I think humans are born selfish. Even though we are born to be more bad than good, I don't think that we are labeled "evil" when we're born. We simply have not yet learnt to act in a "good" way, and our minds work to be selfish. It is the responsibility of the government to help encourage the people to contribute to society in a positive way. I'm sure individuals would participate even less if the government were to force us to contribute. I don't think it's right to cheat when we know we won't get caught but come on, I bet loads of people would cheat as long as they can reap the rewards and not get punished. Governments that only concern themselves with their own power are bound to fail. A government exists to protect and preserve our individual rights. I believe that the government is here to serve us, not the other way around!

Tara says: POSTING CELESTINE!! lols >> for the first question, i really don't like to think of people being born "evil". i mean, first of all, how can you blame a new-born baby for being evil? it's a new life, doesn't know anything. yeah, as kids we're probably pretty selfish, but if you're talking about the actual beginning of life, i'm gonna stick with no. we were not born evil babies...
governments should encourage people to participate within their societies, but then, if they keep pushing people around too much, who would want to contribute? so there has to be a balance. encourage for the people who are interested, but for the people who aren't, leave them be. you can't force everyone into doing something you want them to do. (oh and for those people who love to be specific, this does NOT mean if people wanna do drugs, let them do it. i mean community service, etc etc.)
okay MR WELKER! this is my clarification for you :P hahaha. sometimes when the test or whatever you're doing is BIG and you know it means a lot, then NO it would be wrong to cheat. and so i won't. overall, that is the case - no cheating. but be truthful, everyone has probably cheated once in their lives because they knew they wouldn't get caught.
so i'm guessing this is the same question like in class? (sorry kinda don't understand it). well anyways, i think that the government needs to help the people but the people also has to help the government. the government needs to protect us and our rights etc, but without the help of people, it will probably collapse too; no taxes, no community services, blah blah. so it's a give and take thing in my opinion.
THERE CEL! made it nice and long, all for you.

Celestine: I did have to wait for a freaking long time, dude. well we sure as hell weren't born good. :D
i agree with your government thing.
cheating on tests are bad but a little copying on homework isn't serious. but i think its still "wrong". its just not AS wrong as cheating on a test or exam. you know?
do we really need to contribute to community service for the government to run smoothly though? it's a give-take situation, sure. but i think the government is more there for us. its there to serve justice to and for us. protect our rights. provide stuff for us to make our lives easier. the government OBVIOUSLY gives more than it takes. :D:D

Tara says: well you know, mine was WAY LONGER than yours. totally kicked a** :D hahahha.
anyways, yeahh. at first i thought people were born good, but then some of you guys have a point about how children are selfish and stuff. so yeah, technically i agree with that. when we're kids, we're selfish. that's because we don't know any better. but we were not born evil, i mean c'mon. pessimistic! i think we were just born neutral. why does everything have to be either "good" or "bad". in fact, i'm sure that even a bad person has some good in him. it's not all black and white.
YES i know what you mean. i would say more, but i just tried and it didn't come out right so i'll just leave it at "YES i know what you mean." :)
well, without our taxes government wouldn't be anywhere. or they would but then we wouldn't have many good facilities, therefore the government can't really help us in that aspect. without our community service workers, old homes wouldn't have many helpers there and there would be less shelters for homeless people, therefore government isn't helping the entire population that it's meant to help. without our support, isn't the government pretty useless? if we don't cooperate with them because we feel like it's not our responsibility to make this society a better place, then the entire country will go into chaos, and the government will just be a pointless group of people.
(lol we are dominating this discussion blog, cel. high five :P)

Celestine says: Celestine acknowledges your high five. But instead she decides to do the hair thing. MUAHA.
CENSORSHIP TARA! you swore! welker's gonna execute you, man!
if we were born neutral, why are we so evil? you can't do evil and be good. you can't do evil and be neutral. psh. you so whack, man.
sure it's not black and white, but we are more black than we are white. which would be awesome if it were literal!!
well sure, the whole taxes thing. but i'm not so convinced abut the community service. by not participating in community service, surely that doesn't mean we aren't cooperating? its' everybody's responsibility but i think its more the government people who should be trying to make this society a better place. why do we, mere individuals, need to get off our lazy bums (notice tara - censorship) to help make this a better place? that's what taxes are for!!!!!!!!!

Tara says: (PSH! that stupid hair thing is for losers :P big fat L for you, cel. i will never ever give you high fives again. pay the consequences.
I SWORE?? oh, is it the a** thing? oohkay, ma baad! i'll change it... but hey, you wrote hell. and according to teachers that should be censored too apparently, to heck. lols. have fun changing that.)
>> who says we're evil? are you saying everyone on the face of this earth is evil? dude, i believe people like hitler and stuff were born neutral too. but because of the hardships he went through and the way he tried to deal with it - which apparently wasn't an effective way - he "became evil". that doesn't mean i like him or am on his side, you should know that. duh. austrian pride! but hey, point made. it's just like the shiloh thing. how can you hate her just because she's a baby from angelina? SHE'S A BABY. she couldn't CHOOSE her parents! but that's going off topic so maybe we shouldn't continue on that.
HAH! we are more black than white, but we are still BOTH! point made again! we aren't completely black or completely white. we have a little of both. everything in life is that way, balance. yin and yang :P
well the community service is just an example that people can help. but taxes is a given fact and you agreed. we need to give as the people too, again balance!

Celestine says: Hell is NOT a bad word.
i'm not saying we're evil now. because we all know i'm such a wonderfully good person. but we were born evil. its through the influence of parents, education, tv, "Friends" all that. it makes us gooooood. like Bruce Almighty.
look how pretty all these colors are. and look how ugly yours is. :D:D
SHE'S A BEEP. and you know what i'm gonna say. but i'll censor it into love child. but we all know she's a beep of a beep. her mama's a homewrecker and that female-dog of a devil-baby is the product of it. she is
DEVIL'S SPAWN. nice new words, huh? i learned it from my fellow group of angelina-bashers. good people.
so we're mix. but we got a little more black in us when we're born. i'm not saying we black all throughout when we're born. but as we progress, we became either more black or more white, or mixed. you know....
we need to give as the people but the government DO give us more. serve justice. protect laws. give us public defenders. shelter the homeless. provide transportation. all that stuff. and all we do is pretty much vote and pay taxes. and tons of us dont' even vote!!!

Tara says: mrs smith thinks so, mr green thinks so.. *shrug, whatever floats your boat. haha i've stolen your saying.
so you're telling me that exactly when a baby is born, it's full of all this evil and gee, it's a horrible thing. even when it smiles for the camera and giggles with laughter and blah blah blah, it's evil? i'll agree we are selfish, but i am so not agreeing with the evil part. please define the word evil, if you're still so opinionated on that topic (is that a word? hmm).
lol mine is professional, celestine. hem hem.
okay anyone could understand what you just said and that was WAY worse than saying a**! but still, i cannot believe you! THAT IS CRUEL! if she grew up and became another typical hollywood diva, then yeah, hate her. but she's a BABY. SHE DID NOTHING WRONG! (we have to agree to disagree here or i will get so worked up and then become angry. haha. so yeah, truce.)
so we were born selfish? hey, we need to be. if we give all your meals to our parents, we wouldn't even survive through our baby years. if we didn't cry in the middle of the night because some mosquitoes are biting us to death, then no one would know and we could get a disease or whatever. but that does NOT make us evil!
okay well think of it this way, how does the government get all that money then? from US. no, not USA. us as in the people. that is already one HUGE contribution. without our money, a government is just a group of people trying to tell us what to do but not succeeding even the slightest.
(oh btw, i'm making these words a few sizes smaller. its getting long!)

Celestine says: Great. Let's all be dwarf fonts. D:
float the boat is one of my sayings? wow i am wise beyond knowledge. ;)
well the most evil people ACT good. when they cry during the night and wake you up or when they peee in your face. well that's their TRUE side. you get what i mean? you feel me?
yes opinionated is a word.
psh. she IS DEVIL SPAWN. she did nothing wrong. but she is to be blamed. itis just how society works. like a prostitute's daughter will always be looked down upon. shiloh will probably grow up to be a reflection of her prostituting mother and her jerk of a father. which means she will probably grow up to be in love with like Maddox. (angelina's part of the family have always been big on incest). and she'll probably wreck a few families.
well not give them our meals. but just like hold in the poop so your mom can rest for a while. or don't pee in her face. you know? we dont' cry because mosquitoes are killing us. we cry because we're bad kids and we're just lonely. or we have no reason. even stupider.
we don't need money to do what we should be doing. unless the government is corrupted, then we'd need some bribing. yes we need to give them our money. but i'm saying that the government gives us more. we just provide money. that's all. we fund a small part of everything. the government is like our mom. we're the selfish kids.


Tara says: i'm bbaaack :)
yes it was one of your sayings, but since you can't remember even that, i don't think you're really as smart as you claim to be.. lol jk.
no i dont "feel you" -___- if baby's didn't do that, then they wouldn't be able to survive their years. it's instincts. like on national geographic (yes i watched it, i was bored over the summer) i saw this thing where one female bird would go off with a million male birds to reproduce, but once the eggs are hatched, the male has to take care of the babies and the female goes on to the next male bird she can find. so you know, that makes us think this bird is a s*** (I CENSORED IT!) but she has to do that, if not the crocodiles would eat all the chicks and their population would never grow. same thing with babies, if they didnt do certain things, no one would pay attention to them, hence they die. its instincts!
okay that's also cruel to say. if a prostitute had a daughter, then the daughter is not to be blamed! society is just cruel sometimes, they have no sense of logic!!! the mother is the wrong person, she made the mistake! the daughter did NOTHING. and to comment your prediction about shiloh, IF that ACTUALLY happens in the future, be my guest - hate her. but right now, she's not doing any of that, is she? she's a harmless baby just trying to live a normal baby life.
hold in the poop? celestine. when you're a baby, your bladder control sucks. muscles need to build up. you can't just hold something in. even NOW if you really really needed to pee, you wouldn't just hold it in until someone decides to wake up. if you do that, you pee in your pants....
money is a big part in itself. (did i say that already?) think of it this way: yolanda is the government. student body is the people. without our input on what we want, without your support or suggestions, without our votes (all = "money"), where will yolanda be? she wouldn't even know where to start. and if she decided, oh i'll make some random thing because no one is really telling me specifics, she might do something wrong that will only make our lives worse. so it has to be EQUAL.

Celestine says:
Why is it that babies can't share the mistakes their parents make? In this case, she IS the mistake her parents made. Society sucks. But guess what? We make up society. Divorced parents - apparently now psychology decides their kids are more screwed up in their head than kids with married parents. A model's daughter is expected to be a model. We share our parent's successes. Wouldn't we share our parent's failures? It's what makes them them. And we always grow up to be them. Actor's kid usually becomes actor. Is expected usually to become an actor. Is usually expected to be as sucky or as good as actor. That does not make sense. Sure, we might grow out of being our parents. But hey, we usually turn into them more than we turn into opposites of them.
I don't hate Shiloh because I know hher. Its not her personality. It's what she is. She represents a lot of what's wrong. She is the product of homewrecking. I am not blaming her for it. I am just saying she is the result of it. Shiloh COMES with that. Nobody is ever going to think of Shiloh and not think of their parents. And they aren't gonna think of Shiloh and not think of all that drama.
It's not equal. We give them money and input. But action is more than words. And who really gives input for the government? Hell, half of us don't even vote for the president -the person leading us! This isn't student council. It's the government. I don't put input in the government. Do you?


Jocelyn says:

Ok, I didn't read like EVERYTHING here, because that would take me days. I'm just here to say that, I think people are born NEUTRAL, like Tara said. When people are born, they don't know anything! They learn from their surroundings and their environment and from the people around them. But if I really had to choose, I'd say that people are born more selfish than they are kind and friendly because when people are born they don't know about anything but themselves. Therefore, they will only think for themselves and they cannot be what people call "kind" or "friendly" because they haven't learned about that yet. Ok, well, I don't think people are going to read this anyway. Goodbye.



so. i think. people are born neutral, just like joce and tara say. its the environment and the expirences that people go through that make them them. people are taught to be nice and selfless to each other because it helps living easier. noone wants to live by themself. even if you really are veryvery dark. trust me.
so in conclusion, people arent evil from the moment of their birth. if you think about it, that would mean that everyones fate is set. and that would really suck if everyones fate was set. i think fate is there for you to change. :D

Kliki vd Mosa- I disagree with all of you... I think that some ppl are born evil and some good. It's not like everybody is interested in the same thing. I believe that environment and family has a big influence on your behavior but i dont think that thats defines the way your born. Its not like you and your brother/sister are exactly the same. Maybe your brother likes murder mysteries and watching movies with a lot of killing and maybe you like ummm... anything else... Still you are both raised in the same conditions... So that wouldnt be proof for the way that their intersts were formed...??? umm and to jocelyn.. Fate- you cant change, destiny- you can change... so you believe in destiny... haha

Tara says: who was that up there? ^
>>anyway, to celestine: because parent's are the ones who made the dumb decisions. babies didn't suddenly decide to be the "product of homewrecking". i'm sure that if every baby had a choice, they would choose to be the baby of a nice, caring mother. and that is surely not evil.
and about society, that is all perspective. we think movie stars are fat, but are they really? it's all expectations and assumptions. you expect someone to be just like their parent. but that's not necessarily true. we are completely different human beings, we don't share the same fate, mistakes, and even successes. you can succeed in the same places, but your success is still different in it's own way.
why does shiloh represent the wrong things? doesn't angelina represent that stuff? remember when you said some magazine put sean prestion down as one of the most worst dress male celebrities or something? and you said it was wrong because it's not like he can dress himself? well it's sort of the same thing, shiloh can't control what happens to her or her family or mom or whatever.
well i guess what type of government it is has a lot to do with this factor then. in communist country, it's pretty hard to contribute. but isn't democracy for the people, by the people and something-else people (i forgot the third one..)?
anyway, this is getting a little cold. so i'll answer some other people's now:
>>lol jocelyn, hi. i did read it :P well i agree with you. but for the selfish thing, i specifically agree with "selfish" and not "evil". but you didn't say evil... so yeah.
to anonymous person, lol! "noone wants to live by themselves, even if they are veryvery dark. trust me" that scares me a little, hahaha. seems like you know what you're talking about. jkjk. well i agree with what you said about fate. does anyone really believe you have a certain life already planned out for you when you're born? i think fate is something we make, not something that is determined by someone else.

Carson says: Wow that's alot of argueing. Anyways, i agree with jocelyn and tara. People are born neutral and learn their way to be good or bad. The government should stimulate and encourage positive contributions from the citizens to the society but they shouldn't force them too like in a communist/socialist government. I think it is not right to cheat because it is against my morals but i wouldn't report someone of cheating because they are the one not learning and not me. If they were cheating off ME however, i'd beat them up or something :D Anyways, governments that only concern themselves with only their own power is usually called a diplomatic government (i'm probably wrong) and they usually end up failing unless they have really supportive citizens or something =\

Tara says: because celestine has converted me, pretty much, into a wiki nerd (lol cel, congrats) and because i dunno what else to do right now, i'm posting again :D
"i'd beat them up or something" - hhahhah. go carson! lols. but anyway, this sort of reminded me of that question we had to answer in class, about what you think; if you witnessed someone cheating but didn't tell, should you be punished too? i think it's an interesting topic. so here's what i have to say to that -- i think the witness shouldn't be punished. if someone wants to cheat on a big test, even though they know it counts a lot, then it's their problem. their choice. a witness has nothing to do with this. the witness isn't cheating, he/she is just minding their own business. living their own life. they did nothing wrong. of course, when it comes to more serious things, it's way more complicated that cheating on a test. but since my wiki nerd needs are pretty much satisfied for now, i won't go more into that :)

Sean says: jesus christ, tara and celestine u two wrote so much. Anyways, you can't blame someone for being very evil and being all about world domination. They were probably born neutral ( usually selfish since they do not understand much), and as everyone else says, became either good or bad depending on the hardships or what tragic events they experience in their lives. I don't think the government really affects what u become later on in life however. I think it is based on what your family says to you and what information they pass on to you from past generations. I would surely trust my father and mother more than some advertisement from the government saying how something is bad or good. If parents said that being nice and stuff is a good thing to do, you will probably do that. If they tell you something bad, but they say it as if it is a good thing, then you will probably believe them. And if you learn something when you are a child, you will most probably remember it and will not be as influenced when people contradict what you think as you grow older. So in my opinion, i think it is your family that affects what u become, not the government.

Kliki van der Mosa says- I actually think that humans can both be born evil or good. it is the way we are raised or the environment around us that can change us... I mean when you think about it, your brothers and sisters are really different from you and one might like evilness more than goodness... yet you both are raised in about the same environment and were raised in a failry same way. This kind of proves my theory that humans are just born differently. But they can also change from what they have experienced. like when you watch movies, they have this bully that bullies because his dad abuses him or wtv. Thats kind of the environment thingie.
Angela H. says:
you guys are crazy. wrote too much. i can't read it all. CELESTINE --- 32 contributions? TARA---25 contributions?MADE ME NO LONGER ONE OF THE TOP CONTRIBUTORS :( jeez. HEY AND I MADE UP THIS REALLY COOL SMILY: :.) ---> a smily with a mole. okay okay.
ARE HUMANS BORN EVIL?
im here to say.
that.
BABIES ARE BORN SELFISH AND A BIT EVIL. if they weren't taught not to be selfish or evil, they would not be sharing! It's just because adults or like older people teach them to be selfless. IMAGINE A 10-month old baby. we buy this baby a toy. WHAT WOULD THE BABY MOST LIKELY BE DOING WITH THE TOY? uh, NOT SHARE IT? PLAY WITH THE TOY BY HIMSELF/HERSELF? CRY when other babies play with it at the same time?
SEE? EXCELLENT EXAMPLE RIGHT? :D

CHEATING/STEALING/KILLING :O
and also...
cheating...
we were TAUGHT not to cheat.or that if we cheated or stole, WE WOULD RECEIVE PUNISHMENTS. if there were no good people or no laws in this world, we would all be cheating and stealing. ALL. and we would be KILLING too (oh em JEEEEEEE :o ), without anyone telling us not to.
evil eh?
SO.
Every human is born selfish and evil, but the laws and the good people in this world encourage each human to be more selfless and anti-evil :D

RESPONSIBILITY OF A GOVERNMENT
One of a government's roles is to make sure people contribute in a positive way to society. Without a government to encourage people to do so, it would be complete chaos. Without a government, (what i just said before) HUMANS WILL REMAIN SELFISH AND EVIL. I don't think it should be left up to the individual to decide, because you see, if EVERYONE HAD A CHOICE...MOST OF THEM WOULD CHOOSE TO BE SELFISH AND HAVE EVERYTHING TO THEMSELVES RITE?
right.

GOVERNMENTS WHO THINK THEY'RE SO COOL
FAIL.
failure.
FAILURE.
NO, THEY WILL NOT SUCCEED.
maybe they will, for like a few years because people are so scared of him/her (OMG I'VE NEVER HEARD OF A WOMAN GOVERNMENT, have you?)!!!
but then..
eventually people will start to think it's totally unfair, and that the government is supposed to SERVE THEM, and not the other way around! you see?
and then...
when people start to HATE THE GOVERNMENT...
they will start protesting....
and then....
more people will start protesting...
and then....
THE GOVERNMENT GETS OVERTHROWN. :D
so governments who give themselves LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS OF POWER....
will fail.
FAILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL.
and FAILLLL.

Kliki vd Mosa- To angela about cheating
I think its in a humans nature to adapt to our environment and to try to be one of 'them'. Therefore i believe that a lot of people cheat for their own benefit. If you dont know the answer to a question then you tend to freak or spaz out and cheat because you want to get the best grade possible. This is because ur probably scared that other people will want to know what you got on your test and you dont like lying (well that would be my initiative but luckily it motivates me to study.) SEEEE I HAVE THIS WHOLE THEORY BEHIND MY THOUGHTS>!!>>>!!!! anywayzzzz... yh... coolness

James Chiang says:

Uh oh. A guy came into the conversation! I'm gonna get kicked out! Well, anyways, reading what you guys have typed is gonna take yoinks, although I CAN say that Angela has taken up considerable space. Anyways, back to what I think. I think that humans are naturally good, but being bullied and stuff turn them to revenge-thirsrty zombies. Governments should keep the people so that they make a positive change to their society. That way, more people will be inspired develop their community, and the one-in-a-million genius can grow up and be a genius. I don't know about the cheating thing, but I guess that different people who have had different lives would to different things. I don't think I would. Note the word 'think.' If governments only want more power, they will neglect the people, and lose more power than they started with. And receive the hate of the citizens. Sorta like Bush and the U.S.

---> You saythey're crazy, Angela? Wow. That's gotta be pretty crazy. Oh and I think around in Indonesia somewhere women are the leaders.

Kliki vd Mosa- POWER!!!
I have a question for all ya wikiwakies (haha i thought of that lmao) anywayzzz.. umm what would you do if you have as much power as the emperors of the past dynasties?! I mean, the only thing we criticize is what the emperors did wrong and most of us basically think that the ancient dynasties werent ruled very well. You see, i think that with all the power a lot of people will think of themselves first. Its like when you get a million dollars... how many ppl would actually give the money to charity or to random ppl on the street?!

Tara says: okay for a second i was totally lost, but yeah, james is right. i can't remember her name.. or wait! do we have a new president now? i'm not much into politics. but there once was, definitely. GO INDONESIA!
that's all i have to say :.) --> your smiley face with a mole, angela... haha.


Jocelyn says:
I read part of angela's stuff about evilness and selfishness. SO, in response to that, I must ask, how does being born selfish make someone EVIL?! Selfishness and evilness are two different things, and evil is more like, "I'm going to destroy the world because I want to and because all the people in the world deserve to die." But I agree with you, people are born with a little selfishness because they don't know anything about anyone else yet. All that matters is themself when they're born. I don't think the evil dictators in the world were born evil, I think their surroundings and the people around them caused them to think a certain way and have different beliefs about things. I don't think anyone else is coming to this discussion board. Or are they?

James Chiang says:

I'm pretty sure that the Philipennes (Philippines?) have a female president too.

:-<=== This is a guy with a very long beard.

JEFFREY LIU SAID:
What the heck... writing on the last day before the test. According to the sayings of 三字經 or this book compiled of logical sayings, it says "When people are born, they are born with good heart but its the environment that makes them the way they are...." Have you guys ever thought of that comparison that Mr. Welker was talking about? Something about Mother Teresa and Hitler. Mother Teresa became a humanitarian while Hitler..... hm. Hitler was born into a environment and surrounding of killing and chaos. I think it's pretty logical that Hitler will have feelings of anger and vengeance inside him. Mother Teresa feeling sad and pity for the people became a humanitarian. Same with the Buddha. Btw anyone think Buddha is kinda dull? Took him like what 28 days to figure out that "Life is suffering and people are selfish."
p.s sean....I am christian -.-

Angela Hsieh says:
JEFFREY LIU
it's really rude to insult a religion like that. its like people saying "God is dull". u think its nice?

JOCELYN TSAIH
maybe humans are born a bit evil. ihave no idea how that has to do with selfishness but it kind of does. a bit. i think. HUMANS ARE DEFINITELY BORN SELFISH THOUGH.like i said before, theyr born that way, but its just that the environment changes the person. =.)

Carson Says:
Okay guys we're getting off topic. Sorry for being the teacher and all but lets just not post here unless we really have something relative to say and let others have a chance to talk. And just be careful of what you say; it might offend others etc etc. =)

Kliki vd Mosa- To Jeffrey
I agree with angela on this one.. i no its kinda late to be writing this after like weeks... but when i read the end of your comment i thought that it was kind of desrespectful to just say that buddhism is dull... i mean of course you obviously dont believe in buddhism but a lot of other ppl do and i think that eventhough its not following the teachings or morals that christianity does, its not dull?! So yh, watch wat u rite!!!